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TAL BLOG
T?L Interviewed by Class War
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Here's the interview with T?L that appears in the latest issue of the political newspaper CLASS WAR - www.londonclasswar.org - The paper can be bought for ?1.50 from Class War, PO BOX 467, London, E8 3QX.
Can you give a brief history of TAL and where it's going now so much is changing at Celtic Park?
The formation of TAL and Celtic Fans Against Fascism was really the culmination of our reaction against the racism of our own supporters towards rangers? signing of the Black English player Mark Walters in the late 1980?s. In the first game that Walters played for rangers at Celtic Park, many of our fans made monkey chants and threw bananas on to the trackside. That day was one of the most depressing for the militant anti-fascists and republicans among our support. Although it took another couple of years before the fanzine was established, it was our determination to address that kind of racism among our own fans that spurred us on. Our approach was simple. We were supporters of the Irish republican struggle and identified with the militant approach of AFA. We also sought to champion the idea of democratising the club, campaigning to put the most important people ? the fans ? in control of the club. It was also important from the anti-racist point of view to highlight the history of the club as a football team that grew out of an immigrant community. The Irish in Scotland were themselves the victims of racism and discrimination. Therefore, it was hypocritical, to say the least, for the second and third generation of that immigrant community to be the perpetrators of racism.
Within a short space of time the situation was transformed with the majority of our fans recognising this incongruity and identifying with the victims of racism. This in turn led to large sections of Celtic supporters either drowning out or directly confronting the racists within our own support. Within a relatively short space of time the situation had been completely reversed with the anti-fascists and anti-racists now in the majority and any public displays of racism stamped out quickly and efficiently. The most important aspect of all of that period is that we won the political argument with the majority of fans, as well any physical confrontations with racists that resulted. In the end, it really became ?anti-Celtic? to be a racist, with our fans now taking a pride in their progressive attitudes to politics and struggle. Our reputation grew as a result and we established good relations with like-minded supporters from various clubs such as St Pauli, Athletic Bilbao, Bordeaux, Juventus, Anderlecht and Manchester United.
An equally important issue for us was our support for the Irish republican struggle, which impacted upon Celtic supporters because of the Irish family backgrounds that so many of us shared. For us, the war in Ireland was a litmus test of political mettle. Some of us had been involved in conservative left-wing groups in the past and had broken from them largely because of the Brit Left?s cowardice and inability to take the side of the oppressed people of the 6 Counties against the British occupation. It was therefore essential that T?L clearly expressed its support for the republican people and their struggle to get the Brits out, by any means necessary.
To bring things up to date, we had decided on the publication of our 40th issue in 2005 to call it a day after13 years. One reason behind that decision was the changed political situation in Ireland; another was the changing nature of Celtic as a club, with it becoming a global capitalist institution, making it more and more difficult for the politically motivated fans to maintain our identity and organisation. However, after about 18 months there was such a demand for T?L to refill the political vacuum that we had left that we felt it our duty to return to the fray. In that short time, however, we had gained allies from a new, younger generation of Celtic fans who had formed the Ultras group, Green Brigade. These were young fans who had grown up reading T?L and whilst maybe not being as militant in every way as ourselves, still identified clearly with the Irish republican and anti-fascist culture that T?L promoted. In addition, we recruited more people to take part in the Editorial Group of the fanzine. The fanzine editorial group includes Green Brigaders, anti-fascists, republicans, communists, militant trade unionists and those with no political affiliation. The things that bind us all are the love of our football team, the political culture of the supporters and our commitment to anti-sectarianism, anti-racism and anti-fascism.
So, we decided to republish the fanzine in a smaller 32 page A5 format and have produced 2 issues in the last 6 months, moving towards it coming out every 8 weeks during the season. The comment in the fanzine is still hard-hitting politically and, from a club and football point of view, we are still the biggest thorn in the side of Celtic PLC and their globalist ambitions.
.
How have you been able to maintain your group/fanzine when others ? such as Red Attitude at Manchester United, have collapsed?
I think we were different because we had a bigger political sea in which to swim at Celtic Park. Celtic fans are generally quite liberal, which you?ll have witnessed if you?ve ever been away in Europe with our supporters! TAL was going through an already open door because there are a lot of our supporters who are politically aware and who have opinions across a range of issues. Politics is part of the club?s foundations with the link to Michael Davit and other Irish republicans being there at the start and continuing throughout its history, certainly among the fans, if not among the hierarchy of the club today. To be talking about the future of our club and its heritage alongside articles about the latest moves in republican political strategy is completely natural to us. We have heated discussions about the last game on our website, where almost no-one agrees. We have Che Guevara articles and posters in our fanzine alongside what many might see as football tittle-tattle, but then we also have serious analysis of our club, it?s identity, the slow bleeding of the working class base of the support. Plus there are always articles and interviews with anti-fascist ultras groups from around the world and the occasional hooligan interview like the Cliftonville Lunatic Fringe in our current edition. We still play our part in the fan culture at Celtic, politically and socially. TAL was re-launched last season and so far the response has been great. Our fanzine sales at the ground are usually pretty good.
Gerry Adams sees the peace process as a step towards a united Ireland, whilst Ian Paisley argues it settles the question of the union - permanently. How can they both be right?
Well, they can?t both be right and that?s the dilemma that they will both have to face up to at some point. I don?t have any big analysis to offer of Irish politics. Republicans are in government in the 6 Counties. Had they not taken their eye off the ball in the recent 26 County Election they might also be in government there too. It?s important that the working class base of republicanism is maintained and that, in addition to all the grand talk about national consensus and the reunification of the country by 2016, bread and butter issues are put to the fore of republican politics, or the working class composition of the movement will diminish. That aside, Sinn Fein are now in seats of power in Stormont and they?ll be judged on what they achieve there.
Ireland is changing so drastically, is it likely to lead to denying it's own history and identity or is it a positive. Recent events at Croke Park seemed to suggest that many of the Irish rugby fans were oblivious to what had even happened there in the past, others seemed to prefer to forget and let bygones be bygones.
Father Jack might say, ?That would be an ecumenical matter?.?
Ireland is changing in many ways, but its unfair to describe those changes as drastic, it is a process that has been going on over many years and owes more to its membership of the European Union than it does to any new political thinking on the part Fine Gael or Fianna Fail. The growth of Sinn Fein in both the six and twenty six counties is undoubtedly a major factor in that change and a real and welcome challenge to the political status quo on the island of Ireland.
The decision by the GAA to open up Croke Park for use by other sporting bodies such as the Football Association of Ireland and Irish Rugby Football Union along with the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement is seen by many as an example of a 'New Modern Ireland'. However, to use such a term simply panders to negative stereotypical visions of an 'Old Ireland' full of Shamrock and Shillelaghs.
If the GAA's decision to open up Croker has contributed to the education of those who were unaware of the historical significance of the venue during the war of independence then it is welcome. And those who choose to disregard the events that took place there on 21st November 1920 are as much the enemy of Irish Republicanism as British rule in Ireland.
As for the country's history and identity, quite simply, too much was invested by those who fought for an Ireland that they would never live to see, for it to be denied. However, it?s history and identity can only be truly recognised when the aspiration of a United Ireland has finally been achieved, until then we will continue to honour its past and help in whatever way we can to shape its future.
What groups would you recommend to anti-fascist football fans today?
Well, to our own supporters we?d obviously recommend Celtic Fans Against Fascism, which we started ourselves and which has been at the forefront of anti-fascist, anti-racist and anti-sectarian campaigns at Celtic for about 16 years.
The Independent Working Class Association; because we have to rebuild our communities from the bottom up and the IWCA seem to have an approach to the working class that is unique on the left and which seeks to politically empower our communities. An organisation like the IWCA can politically compete with the fascists for ?hearts and minds? in working class areas, as well as the obvious benefit that their democratic approach puts political space between their methods and those of the old left; fighting for the rights of all and facilities for the use of all, not for sectional interests based on the racial segregation of our communities, something that the left?s attachment to the philosophy of multiculturalism has shamefully encouraged rather than fought against.
I?ve met some people from Antifa and they were sound. It all depends on the political circumstances in particular areas, the threat posed by the fascists and the calibre of the anti-fascist activists available ? you have to tailor your strategy and tactics accordingly. Fight when you can win? and if you cant win, don?t fight! There will be other days. It?s a simple formula that brought AFA a lot of success against the fascists.
I don?t believe in ghost-hunts or wild goose chases for invisible fash or NFers that go around with double the numbers of police guarding them. There?s very little street presence of fascists on parade anywhere, so it?s important to be fighting them in working class communities where they are politically active. That means anti-fascism must learn to politically adapt.
There is such an amazing bond between Celtic fans and St.Pauli fans, why has this happened and can it be replicated elsewhere?
It started in 1992 very soon after our fanzine was founded. Some of the St Pauli fans had contact with less political elements from another fanzine, but they contacted us and expressed the many things that we shared in common, from football culture and music to support for anti-fascism and the Irish struggle. The bond between the fans is unbreakable now. We can have political disagreements with them and they with us on many issues, but there remains at root an anti-fascist attitude that has strength in depth. It?s social attitudes, politics and football that is the real affinity. And it?s outside of the control of the football bosses, even though they now try to commercialise it with a merchandising deal between the clubs. Celtic PLC have no understanding of the unbreakable bonds that exist between TAL and the anti-fascists at St Pauli.
We also have good links, going back over many years now, with Herri Norte Taldea (HNT) the militant anti-fascists from Athletic Bilbao. We went over to Bilbao earlier this year to help celebrate the 25th Anniversary of their group. These are solid working class football fans with militant anti-fascist attitudes combined with a strong support for the independence struggle in the Basque Country.
Do you ever see events like those at Manchester United occurring with sections of fans leaving to set up their own club?
No. A similar situation to that of FC United, where an ?FC Celtic? might be started up by a section of disgruntled fans, just won?t happen at our club. The essential belief among our supporters is - regardless of share deals and big business interests - that the club belongs to the fans. That sentiment is still very strong at Celtic; that we are a working class club, founded by Irish immigrants, whose sons, daughters and grandchildren have had to put with a lot of shit just to get on in life. The experience of Celtic supporters is very much tied in with the whole experience of being part of a ?minority community? in Scotland. The club is seen to be an extension of that community. Whatever happens in future with regard to supporters? movements at Celtic Park, I believe it will happen inside the club, not outside of it. It was the commitment of our fans that saved this club in the past and we still want to see OUR club democratised. Ultimately we have the Barcelona model to work towards. It?s not a perfect solution, but it does provide an example where its supporters can at least partially democratically control a club; a club that can embrace with pride its Catalan identity and relate to the political and cultural aspirations of its fans. That?s what we want to see at Celtic; a club based in Scotland that is at ease with its Irish identity and the working class politics and culture of its fans.
Can you give a brief history of TAL and where it's going now so much is changing at Celtic Park?
The formation of TAL and Celtic Fans Against Fascism was really the culmination of our reaction against the racism of our own supporters towards rangers? signing of the Black English player Mark Walters in the late 1980?s. In the first game that Walters played for rangers at Celtic Park, many of our fans made monkey chants and threw bananas on to the trackside. That day was one of the most depressing for the militant anti-fascists and republicans among our support. Although it took another couple of years before the fanzine was established, it was our determination to address that kind of racism among our own fans that spurred us on. Our approach was simple. We were supporters of the Irish republican struggle and identified with the militant approach of AFA. We also sought to champion the idea of democratising the club, campaigning to put the most important people ? the fans ? in control of the club. It was also important from the anti-racist point of view to highlight the history of the club as a football team that grew out of an immigrant community. The Irish in Scotland were themselves the victims of racism and discrimination. Therefore, it was hypocritical, to say the least, for the second and third generation of that immigrant community to be the perpetrators of racism.
Within a short space of time the situation was transformed with the majority of our fans recognising this incongruity and identifying with the victims of racism. This in turn led to large sections of Celtic supporters either drowning out or directly confronting the racists within our own support. Within a relatively short space of time the situation had been completely reversed with the anti-fascists and anti-racists now in the majority and any public displays of racism stamped out quickly and efficiently. The most important aspect of all of that period is that we won the political argument with the majority of fans, as well any physical confrontations with racists that resulted. In the end, it really became ?anti-Celtic? to be a racist, with our fans now taking a pride in their progressive attitudes to politics and struggle. Our reputation grew as a result and we established good relations with like-minded supporters from various clubs such as St Pauli, Athletic Bilbao, Bordeaux, Juventus, Anderlecht and Manchester United.
An equally important issue for us was our support for the Irish republican struggle, which impacted upon Celtic supporters because of the Irish family backgrounds that so many of us shared. For us, the war in Ireland was a litmus test of political mettle. Some of us had been involved in conservative left-wing groups in the past and had broken from them largely because of the Brit Left?s cowardice and inability to take the side of the oppressed people of the 6 Counties against the British occupation. It was therefore essential that T?L clearly expressed its support for the republican people and their struggle to get the Brits out, by any means necessary.
To bring things up to date, we had decided on the publication of our 40th issue in 2005 to call it a day after13 years. One reason behind that decision was the changed political situation in Ireland; another was the changing nature of Celtic as a club, with it becoming a global capitalist institution, making it more and more difficult for the politically motivated fans to maintain our identity and organisation. However, after about 18 months there was such a demand for T?L to refill the political vacuum that we had left that we felt it our duty to return to the fray. In that short time, however, we had gained allies from a new, younger generation of Celtic fans who had formed the Ultras group, Green Brigade. These were young fans who had grown up reading T?L and whilst maybe not being as militant in every way as ourselves, still identified clearly with the Irish republican and anti-fascist culture that T?L promoted. In addition, we recruited more people to take part in the Editorial Group of the fanzine. The fanzine editorial group includes Green Brigaders, anti-fascists, republicans, communists, militant trade unionists and those with no political affiliation. The things that bind us all are the love of our football team, the political culture of the supporters and our commitment to anti-sectarianism, anti-racism and anti-fascism.
So, we decided to republish the fanzine in a smaller 32 page A5 format and have produced 2 issues in the last 6 months, moving towards it coming out every 8 weeks during the season. The comment in the fanzine is still hard-hitting politically and, from a club and football point of view, we are still the biggest thorn in the side of Celtic PLC and their globalist ambitions.
.
How have you been able to maintain your group/fanzine when others ? such as Red Attitude at Manchester United, have collapsed?
I think we were different because we had a bigger political sea in which to swim at Celtic Park. Celtic fans are generally quite liberal, which you?ll have witnessed if you?ve ever been away in Europe with our supporters! TAL was going through an already open door because there are a lot of our supporters who are politically aware and who have opinions across a range of issues. Politics is part of the club?s foundations with the link to Michael Davit and other Irish republicans being there at the start and continuing throughout its history, certainly among the fans, if not among the hierarchy of the club today. To be talking about the future of our club and its heritage alongside articles about the latest moves in republican political strategy is completely natural to us. We have heated discussions about the last game on our website, where almost no-one agrees. We have Che Guevara articles and posters in our fanzine alongside what many might see as football tittle-tattle, but then we also have serious analysis of our club, it?s identity, the slow bleeding of the working class base of the support. Plus there are always articles and interviews with anti-fascist ultras groups from around the world and the occasional hooligan interview like the Cliftonville Lunatic Fringe in our current edition. We still play our part in the fan culture at Celtic, politically and socially. TAL was re-launched last season and so far the response has been great. Our fanzine sales at the ground are usually pretty good.
Gerry Adams sees the peace process as a step towards a united Ireland, whilst Ian Paisley argues it settles the question of the union - permanently. How can they both be right?
Well, they can?t both be right and that?s the dilemma that they will both have to face up to at some point. I don?t have any big analysis to offer of Irish politics. Republicans are in government in the 6 Counties. Had they not taken their eye off the ball in the recent 26 County Election they might also be in government there too. It?s important that the working class base of republicanism is maintained and that, in addition to all the grand talk about national consensus and the reunification of the country by 2016, bread and butter issues are put to the fore of republican politics, or the working class composition of the movement will diminish. That aside, Sinn Fein are now in seats of power in Stormont and they?ll be judged on what they achieve there.
Ireland is changing so drastically, is it likely to lead to denying it's own history and identity or is it a positive. Recent events at Croke Park seemed to suggest that many of the Irish rugby fans were oblivious to what had even happened there in the past, others seemed to prefer to forget and let bygones be bygones.
Father Jack might say, ?That would be an ecumenical matter?.?
Ireland is changing in many ways, but its unfair to describe those changes as drastic, it is a process that has been going on over many years and owes more to its membership of the European Union than it does to any new political thinking on the part Fine Gael or Fianna Fail. The growth of Sinn Fein in both the six and twenty six counties is undoubtedly a major factor in that change and a real and welcome challenge to the political status quo on the island of Ireland.
The decision by the GAA to open up Croke Park for use by other sporting bodies such as the Football Association of Ireland and Irish Rugby Football Union along with the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement is seen by many as an example of a 'New Modern Ireland'. However, to use such a term simply panders to negative stereotypical visions of an 'Old Ireland' full of Shamrock and Shillelaghs.
If the GAA's decision to open up Croker has contributed to the education of those who were unaware of the historical significance of the venue during the war of independence then it is welcome. And those who choose to disregard the events that took place there on 21st November 1920 are as much the enemy of Irish Republicanism as British rule in Ireland.
As for the country's history and identity, quite simply, too much was invested by those who fought for an Ireland that they would never live to see, for it to be denied. However, it?s history and identity can only be truly recognised when the aspiration of a United Ireland has finally been achieved, until then we will continue to honour its past and help in whatever way we can to shape its future.
What groups would you recommend to anti-fascist football fans today?
Well, to our own supporters we?d obviously recommend Celtic Fans Against Fascism, which we started ourselves and which has been at the forefront of anti-fascist, anti-racist and anti-sectarian campaigns at Celtic for about 16 years.
The Independent Working Class Association; because we have to rebuild our communities from the bottom up and the IWCA seem to have an approach to the working class that is unique on the left and which seeks to politically empower our communities. An organisation like the IWCA can politically compete with the fascists for ?hearts and minds? in working class areas, as well as the obvious benefit that their democratic approach puts political space between their methods and those of the old left; fighting for the rights of all and facilities for the use of all, not for sectional interests based on the racial segregation of our communities, something that the left?s attachment to the philosophy of multiculturalism has shamefully encouraged rather than fought against.
I?ve met some people from Antifa and they were sound. It all depends on the political circumstances in particular areas, the threat posed by the fascists and the calibre of the anti-fascist activists available ? you have to tailor your strategy and tactics accordingly. Fight when you can win? and if you cant win, don?t fight! There will be other days. It?s a simple formula that brought AFA a lot of success against the fascists.
I don?t believe in ghost-hunts or wild goose chases for invisible fash or NFers that go around with double the numbers of police guarding them. There?s very little street presence of fascists on parade anywhere, so it?s important to be fighting them in working class communities where they are politically active. That means anti-fascism must learn to politically adapt.
There is such an amazing bond between Celtic fans and St.Pauli fans, why has this happened and can it be replicated elsewhere?
It started in 1992 very soon after our fanzine was founded. Some of the St Pauli fans had contact with less political elements from another fanzine, but they contacted us and expressed the many things that we shared in common, from football culture and music to support for anti-fascism and the Irish struggle. The bond between the fans is unbreakable now. We can have political disagreements with them and they with us on many issues, but there remains at root an anti-fascist attitude that has strength in depth. It?s social attitudes, politics and football that is the real affinity. And it?s outside of the control of the football bosses, even though they now try to commercialise it with a merchandising deal between the clubs. Celtic PLC have no understanding of the unbreakable bonds that exist between TAL and the anti-fascists at St Pauli.
We also have good links, going back over many years now, with Herri Norte Taldea (HNT) the militant anti-fascists from Athletic Bilbao. We went over to Bilbao earlier this year to help celebrate the 25th Anniversary of their group. These are solid working class football fans with militant anti-fascist attitudes combined with a strong support for the independence struggle in the Basque Country.
Do you ever see events like those at Manchester United occurring with sections of fans leaving to set up their own club?
No. A similar situation to that of FC United, where an ?FC Celtic? might be started up by a section of disgruntled fans, just won?t happen at our club. The essential belief among our supporters is - regardless of share deals and big business interests - that the club belongs to the fans. That sentiment is still very strong at Celtic; that we are a working class club, founded by Irish immigrants, whose sons, daughters and grandchildren have had to put with a lot of shit just to get on in life. The experience of Celtic supporters is very much tied in with the whole experience of being part of a ?minority community? in Scotland. The club is seen to be an extension of that community. Whatever happens in future with regard to supporters? movements at Celtic Park, I believe it will happen inside the club, not outside of it. It was the commitment of our fans that saved this club in the past and we still want to see OUR club democratised. Ultimately we have the Barcelona model to work towards. It?s not a perfect solution, but it does provide an example where its supporters can at least partially democratically control a club; a club that can embrace with pride its Catalan identity and relate to the political and cultural aspirations of its fans. That?s what we want to see at Celtic; a club based in Scotland that is at ease with its Irish identity and the working class politics and culture of its fans.
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